Why Hawaii Shippers are Screaming About the Jones Act with Michael Hansen

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you that’s the next step we’re trying to plan today that this Aloha my name is Kayla Akina and I want to welcome you to another episode of a Hana kako which means let’s work together that’s the vision of everyone in Hawaii working together for a better economy a better government and a better society today’s program which is sponsored by the broadcast network of think tech Hawaii is entitled why Hawaii shippers are screaming about the Jones Act now you may know about the Jones Act or you may not know but you’re gonna learn everything you need to tell today because I’ve got a wonderful friend joining us Michael Hanson Michael is probably the most well known and prolific communicator about what the Jones Act is why it needs to change and what we can do about it in the future and so would you welcome with me to the show today Michael Hanson Michael Aloha it’s nice to be here with you Kaylee well you’re the president of an organization called Hawaii shippers council that’s correct and everyone needs to know that the word shippers has a very special meaning once you tell people yes in the in the context that we use the word shipper it means the the cargo owners the people who tender their cargo for shipment on board the carriers of the shipping companies such as Matson and horizon oftentimes people think that shippers means the shipping companies but it’s the shippers are actually the customers that’s not just of the shipping companies and so Michael what that would mean is that you and I and anyone who takes a package over to the post office for Christmas or receives one who anyone who fills up a gas tank with gas that comes on ships is a shipper so really the concerns of shippers and shippers being up in arms about the Jones Act is a consumer concern exactly yep we’re all shippers by extension there we go well shippers of the world unite and in fact I don’t say that facetiously because I just got back a few days ago from Singapore and met with some mutual friends of Michael and mind were in the shipping business their shippers met with a big s on it and we’re going to share with you a little bit about those international perspectives but first before I go back to Michael and we begin our verse Asia I want to just share with you that the issue of the Jones Act sounds exotic it sounds legal it sounds very far out there and it sounds too technical to get to know but I really invite you to listen carefully today and today really we’re gonna put everything in this 45 minute period that you need to know about the Jones Act because it’s doing some terrible things it’s time that this nearly century-old federal law and we’re going to talk about that B revision being remodeled so to speak for the 21st century and we’re going to let you know about some of the ways it actually hurts every one of us who is a shipper now back to Michael Michael I you have a passion for this whole issue don’t you oh yes I’ve been in the shipping business for Al since the early 70s and the Jones Act was something that was really occurring barrier to what people might want to do so you’re not a legislator or you’re not a public policy think-tank head like myself and so forth as I am with the grassroot institute you actually are somebody in the shipping industry who knows the nuts and bolts about shipping yes I’m a practitioner as they say and as president of Hawaii shippers council you’ve made it in a sense your mandate to get out there and communicate to the world about the Jones Act right we’re trying to develop as much support as we can amongst what are known as the non-contiguous jurisdictions of the United States that’s Alaska Guam Hawaii and Puerto Rico all places that depend upon ocean shipping for their trade and commerce with the mainland very good and so that we have something in common with many other regions in the United States that are largely surrounded by water but we like Puerto Rico and Guam are totally surrounded by water well I can hear my wife right now because she’s telling me tell them what the Jones Act is and tell them often what the Jones Act is and I know of a few people who can tell what the Jones Act is as well as Michael Hanson so just right there the ABCs the cliffnotes Michael what is the Jones Act the Jones Act in a nutshell is the is section 27 of the Merchant Marine act of 1920 so that’s when it started that and that was 120 and so it was enacted and basically the Jones Act requires that a vessel whether it’s a ship or a barge or any vessel that might carry cargo must be US built u.s. flag u.s. crude and US owned in order to carry cargo between two domestic points within the United States okay so let me just sum that up we’re talking about the transport of cargo between two ports within the United States or United States territories right so anything that goes between ports okay so we’re not talking about from a foreign country to a u.s. necessarily right the Jones Act is a domestic shipping okay very good it does not apply to international trade now let me just modify that a bit legally it doesn’t apply to ships coming from overseas from other countries but in terms of the economic reality you and I will talk about later on the fact that the Jones Act actually influences whether there’s an incentive for those ships to come but let’s go back again to the definition we’re talking about shipping between two American ports and there are four things that apply according to the Jones Act number one is built u.s. bill okay so the ship that goes between US ports must be built in the United States that’s correct – well yeah and built and never rebuilt in a foreign place okay there’s a whole set of regular very guarding that so US built never – and the US flag of course US flag right all right each means that it has to be registered as a vessel the United States in the same way you would register your vehicle okay good it’s a it’s analogous to that unless you’re an immigrant in California excuse me but in any case number three number that you the the vessel must be American US crude okay it means that all of the crew members must be American citizens there is an exemption all crew or most of the crew mostly all the officers must be US also it’s very good and of the unlicensed crew members 75% have to be US citizens 25 25 percent can be so-called green card holders ok very good and so the fourth regulation is that it must be us oh okay and there’s a there’s a little exemption there it must be 75% citizen owned okay there it there can be 25% foreign ownership very good but what if you have credit cards and debt and that debt is owned by China does that affect their not you as a citizen actually large legal cases over who holds a well ship mortgage there you go because there’s an ownership implication in terms of a mortgage and whether or not you can very good well you know I’m gonna just give you a preview as you’re watching as to what you’re gonna hear later on well Michael is gonna tell you how bad the Jones Act is for America and for Hawaii and Puerto Rico and Guam in particular places completely surrounded by water we’re gonna talk about what it’s done to the shipping industry we’re gonna talk about how it has actually decimated the ability of the United States to build ships and have enough modern and clean and good healthy ships out there but first let’s talk about why the Jones Act exists at all in the first place and what good what’s trying to be accomplished one of the things I believe Michael is that whenever we’re going to deal with any issue we have to be absolutely fair to the other side you’ve committed yourself to fighting for reform of the Jones Act but but for a moment let’s do honor to the people who put that law into prac into and to those who continue to support it so what is the basic rationale the Merchant Marine act of 1920 of which one section is the so is known as the Jones Act all right was passed aft in the aftermath of World War one right war one terminated in 1918 and during the period of World War one the u.s. allowed foreign shipping into the coastal trade and so the Merchant Marine act of 1920 including the the section known as the Jones Act was an attempt was not just an attempt was a measure to reassert cabotage regulation over the u.s. coastal shipping now that word kava Taaj if we were outside of the United States and perhaps some of the former British colonies like Singapore virtually everybody would know it but here in fact it’s it’s some Portuguese and Spanish origin and for example in Puerto Rico everybody knows what camouflage means so it’s not just the it varies from place to place in the United States cabotage originally comes from the word Cabo meaning cape okhta in spanish and portuguese and it came to be used by the french to mean transportation of cargo on water between the caves all right so that’s such a misogynist that’s word yeah like Porsche right Porto where they carried the canoes around the Whitewater there you go kappa Tosh between the carriage between the capes so generally means shipping cargo also since originally was a maritime term it is now a broadly used term throughout transportation so it could mean flying cargo there’s aviation cap authorities go that applies to cargo aviation camouflage that applies to folks to to passengers so to go back to what you were saying a little bit earlier in the specter of the sinking of the Lusitania at a time into the beginning in the early part of the 20th century there were some real military defense security issues was it that kind of acronym what happened is the war effort took up the available US flag ships and many much of the coastal shipping was not the demand was not being met so the government did allow some foreign shipping into the u.s. coastal trades after the war when the the requisitions ships returned to regular service then they tightened up the okay the regulations the capital regulations with the Merchant Marine act of 1920 now as we move beyond the specter of the war what were the economic reasons for keeping the Jones Act in place well the the intention of the Jones Act is in the preamble of the of the Merchant Marine act of 1920 and it was to support develop and encourage growth in the marine industry okay so and it’s it’s never quite realized that the only there’s only one time where we had a huge explosion of our maritime industry and that was during World War Two and shortly thereafter with people like Henry J Kaiser who pioneered the the construction of ships using production all right aligned techniques so basically you’re saying that the measure was enacted and maintained in order to strengthen the American shipping industry capacity the building of ships in our country but as you pointed out if we look historically from that period of time to the present we’ve seen a straight line decline but it’s it’s it’s never fulfilled its intent how big was the United States should building industry for non military vessels back in 1920 I want I don’t know how big it was just after World War two it was quite large quite large yeah but how about now today let’s say in at the beginning of 2015 if you look at the shipbuilding industry in the United States today you need to look at at least two different sig to the market there are what are known as the major shipbuilding yards that build the large commercial ships and large naval vessels and that’s a very restricted number of shipyards building a very few vessels per year besides that you’ve got a huge number of huge but you’ve got a large number of yards then build tugs and barges ah and the tugging barge industry in the United States is very active and can be quite competitive for what I understand is in terms of the deep bottom vessels yeah once that Billy are used in the deep trekker ocean-going ships but we really producing a small fraction of those vessels that are a worldwide basis you know we these since 1992 we’ve built on average two deep draft ships self-propelled ships per year before we take a break any other argument used for the defence of the Jones Act oh sure one is to defend the u.s. jobs okay and you know to protect the US jobs and to protect us shipping military shipbuilding and in jobs yeah well yeah the the national defense there’s two categories there one is called sea lifts all right and that means the ability to carry car goes to support overseas military actions material and the second one is to maintain an industrial or the shipbuilding industrial base okay so these are some of the reasons that have been offered for the defence of the Jones Act and and I might add one other in Hawaii in particular the Jones Act helps to nurture industries particularly the the industries that control shipping Matson and the horizon as well as the unions related to them and we’ll talk about that and see to what extent the Jones Act actually accomplishes its goal and whether there’s some side effects on kili Akina today talking with Michael Hanson the president of the Hawaii shippers council we both are working with grassroot institute of hawaii and efforts to bring a new look at the Jones Act and the future of shipping for Hawaii and the nation we’re grateful to think TECA y for today’s program the Hana kako and we’ll be right back after this brief welcome back to a Hanako which means working together on the broadcast network of think TECA ye I’m Keeley Akina president of grassroot institute today we’re talking about why Hawaii shippers are screaming about the Jones Act my guest today is an expert on the subject president of the Hawaii shippers council Michael Hansen and my good friend Mike we were just talking a little bit about the rationale for the Jones Act and you mentioned it was for national defense originally along with protecting our shipping industry protecting jobs related to the shipping industry and so forth and there have been defenses for that what are some of the more contemporary defenses for the Jones Act maybe even some you here here in Hawaii sure well it was also the Jones Act was part of the Merchant Marine act of 1920 and one of the in the preamble of that act there is a it explains the purpose of it and one of the primary purposes was to promote the u.s. maritime industry well how well has the Jones Act actually promoted the maritime industry and it’s nearly 100 years of existence its struggle to accomplish that okay that sounds charitable it really never lived up to you know its billing in terms of the preamble and what people have were intending for it to do and it it’s because it became such a restrictive system and to paraphrase Lord Acton protection is do you see Lord Acton’s power corrupts ya power corrupts you protectionism corrupts and absolute protectionism corrupts absolutely and I’m glad you mentioned that word because I wanted to ask you a little bit about how well it has actually nurtured and built the shipbuilding industry here in our country and everyone recalls back in the days of Detroit when we had strong protectionism tariffs that will put against cars like Hondas and Toyotas and so forth and and we nearly destroyed our own capacity to build quality cars something that was very much American American in industry from the time of Henry Ford and we saw that protectionism itself a strong heavy hand of the federal government Austin said Lee for the purpose of protecting an industry cuts out competition and the elimination of competition makes an industry is a SAG in terms of its effectiveness and ultimately harms the industry itself is that what’s exactly protectionism anywhere in the world has never worked so it’s this is the product this is one of the major problems that the u.s. maritime industry is facing is that it’s been so protected for so long it’s no longer entrepreneurial and currently less than 1% of the deep bottom ships built every year are built in the United States yes that’s correct I’m talking 1% of the tonnage of these ships right you know even on a number of basis I think that would be correct well isn’t it true that Japan built over 70 vessels in a recent here and in the same year the United States built two of these deep bottom vessels yeah Japan typically builds something on the order of about 200 ships per year okay so our this is essentially for what they call a lot export so they’re exporting these ships to – ship owners in other countries how about South Korea do you know how many other I don’t know offhand but its its larger than the number for Japan and China China is the third largest builder of ships in the world today and their production is not as great as the other two so this law the Jones Act which was enacted to protect our ship building capacity has actually seen its decimation during the run year of the Act exactly and we create we build such a tiny amount now do we have problems with shortage because of that since the law requires Jobs Act ships being right between American ports do we have enough to carry out the no industry we visit this is one library this is one of the major problems we actually have an artificial scarcity of deep draft ships in the coastal intercostal and non-contiguous trades of the United States because ships are so hard to come by for domestic purposes being built in the United States means that they’re going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of four to five times what a comparable ship would cost you from either South Korea or Japan and this and this constricts the supply of ships and when you talk about the competitiveness in the past 20 years all of the deep draft commercial ships that have been constructed in the United States have been built under license to a foreign shipyard we’re no longer designing these ships these ships are being our American shipyards when they get an order for a commercial vessel go to a foreign shipyard get the design and with CAD cam now alright you get a program and that basically directs your metal cutting machines know about that do to do what they need to do now what we’re collecting stories at the grassroot institute of how the Jones Act has impacted industry across the country not only in areas surrounded by water like Hawaii and Guam but also the coasts on the east and west coast and inland as far as you know Missouri and and recently a we call a shipper of course because he wants to use shipping but he wouldn’t traditionally think of them as a shipper the owners of forests that cut wood and supply wood in the north least attempted to get that would to Cuba but couldn’t get a ship because they just weren’t available as a result it should be to go to Cuba should this well it wasn’t available at any cost effective but Cuba is not is a foreign country so it’s the foreign trade so that should not have been a problem it may have been a problem because they couldn’t get the export license I’m not quite sure what the problem was but I do know that they because the Train Mohawk Cuba is restricted they ended up sending the the lumber by truck down to Florida and then to Cuba so this is a very interesting they should have been able anyway that’s that’s for example there’s a major problem now on the especially on the east coast of the United States with shortages of petroleum products and there are and this is a and also in terms of the movement of crude oil with US production increasing of crude oil and petroleum products there’s a greater need for domestic transportation of these and for example 150 thousand deadweight tonne products tanker known as the American Phoenix which she’s a she’s about three years old now she was just hired out to Exxon on a time charter basis which is sort of a technical term I guess but at a hundred thousand dollars per day and yeah and an equivalent foreign flagship would hire out at around twelve thousand five hundred dollars a day so that’s that you can look at the differences sure and it’s certainly some of that is is crewing cost now the major component this the the person that let the ship American Phoenix to Exxon this happened earlier this month had taken the ship under time charter at fifty thousand dollars a day and within six months turned around and rillette the ship for $100,000 day which are just astronomical prices and the reason that the ship is going for so much is that there’s just a simple shortage of Jones Act qualified ships all right well we’re seeing some of the and this is of this protectionist yeah and this is a same problem that was addressed in the in the Government Accountability Office were study and report on the Puerto Rico trade and the the the GAO concluded that there was a shortage of ships u.s. Jones Act ships to cover the bulk shipping requirements in Puerto Rico and this includes tankers and right drive bulk carriers it seems obvious then that the intention of the Jones Act hasn’t been accomplished in terms of nurturing and building a shipbuilding and Industry and well we’re going to take a break in a few moments and it said it said it’s tremendously impactful on the other industries that need transportation economical of the water transportation and when we come back to Michael let’s then talk not only about how the Jones Act has not accomplished its purposes but some of the harms for the harms to our economy nationwide harms to regions that are surrounded by water such as Puerto Rico and in particular harms to Hawaii this is Kayla Akina this is a program we call a Hana cocoa on the broadcast network of think tech kawaii my guest today is Michael Hanson and we’re talking about you know why Hawaii shippers are screaming about the Jones Act we’ll be right back after this welcome back to a Chanukah Co on the broadcast network of think tech owari I’m Kaylee Akina president of grassroot institute my guest today Michael Hanson and I are talking about why shippers should be screaming I think they should be about the Jones Act and seeking a better future for the Jones Act and at shipping in Hawaii and across the world I’ve got Michael Hanson president of the Hawaii shippers council with me Michael what’s in this final section talk about some of the harms what is so bad about the Jones acts impact upon Hawaii in particular sure the Jones Act creates an artificial scarcity of ships okay and in the United States we have a pretty competitive tug and barge industry but what we’re really looking at are the deep-sea ocean-going ships how has that impacted on that carry the majority of the cargo in the Hawaii trade there’s two at least two sides to this one is the bulk shipping side where there’s a definite shortage of ships to to cover the requirements and this has led to a shrinking of the of certain sectors of the Hawaii economy so it drives up prices or the cost of having anything shipped here well it is well shipped out it’s actually eliminated industries here so and the primary example of that would be the animal husbandry and at one time we had quite a vibrant ranching as well an animal we had pigs pigs um chickens eggs huh and we had a feedlot here for cattle but what happened is the there was a need to bring feed grains right and also wheat in bulk from the US mainland to Hawaii to continue these industries and there just were no jones act vessels available to do this is the scarcity of these ships exactly and the cost of constructing one of these chivalry one of the basic reason that they’re scarce is because they cost so much to build in a u.s. shipping yard as opposed to having them built in and I’ve read estimates of between four and eight times more expensive I will us what you don’t it is four to five four to five times yeah that’s incredible yeah and it has a huge impact on what’s gonna happen say for example so the we no longer have an F feed mill here in Hawaii and we lost most of our chicken industry the egg industry is on a sort of last legs and now we export young cattle to the West Coast for feeding as opposed to feeding them here and that’s because of the cost of bringing feed it yes no and the kinds of ships that do that are driving all carriers the there is one business left here called Hawaiian flour mills HFM but they bring wheat in bulk from Canada on foreign-flag bulk carriers to get around the Jones Act the they would much prefer to bring cargo from the US because they can get a wider variety of products what about some of the items that we price out of being able to use such as liquid natural gas there there are a lot of arguments that that well be a part of our solution LNG is is something that’s on the on the horizon it would help HECO bring down prices considerably on the electricity side which would be a great benefit to our economy so how does the Jones Act impact our ability to get LNG reasonable there’s two we could bring LNG in from Canada on a foreign flag LNG carrier or we could bring in LNG from the u.s. west coast on a US flag carrier but the Jones Act requires that that ship be built in the United States now how many ships currently under the Jones Act are qualified to carry large quantities of LNG zero really because of the technology the pressurization the containerization we have zero ships under the drugs away right now we built a number of the u.s. built a number of LNG carriers back in the 1970s under a special US government program that they were all subsidized so the implication but we have not built one all right and so the Jones Act not only directs prices such as things that get shipped to Hawaii but it also affects the entire market effect that energy is related to such as the producers of LNG and animal husbandry there are there are enormous downstream effects and this is a nationwide impact then because LNG comes from fields in Texas what else well on the mainland of natural gas is transported primarily by pipeline right it is but in terms of it being able to be sent to places like Hawaii or Guam or Puerto Rico and see their area their big export terminals that are being planned for the United States exporting LNG are intended to export the LNG to foreign places primarily to Asia where the prices of the highest so Hawaii’s prices will remain high because of the the inability to bring in LNG well there’s two um you know that’s correct but if there’s as this LNG scenario develops there’s two options you can either source the LNG from Canada there’s at least two export plants going there being planned currently for the west coast Canada and they can come on foreign-flag ships but they’re gonna those Canadian exporters are gonna sell at what they call Pacific Rim prices that means you’re gonna pay Tokyo price for that LNG now if you buy it from the u.s. west coast you can buy it at closer to a Henry Hub price the Henry Hub is the standard natural gas price for the United States well recently in 2013 On January the 1st Bloomberg online journal quoted a figure I don’t know what the source of that figure is I wonder what you think about it it said that Hawaii’s prices are 30% higher because of the Jones Act you remember that article that came out and I you know I don’t know what the source is and I don’t know whether that’s an exaggeration or not what are your thoughts about that it’s it’s pretty it’s very hard to quantify I don’t think it’s we don’t have the research I don’t think it’s that high but I think in terms of what the downstream effects had on them you know where we’ve lost entire industries where we yeah where we’re all paying huge amounts for electricity and that could be alleviated through different streams that these that these downstream effects are significant well obviously there’s a need for greater research into the Jones Act and this is something that grassroot institute is collaborating with research centers elsewhere in the United States in order to generate some economic models in addition to that we obviously need to help the public to become more aware and Michael your efforts at Hawaii shippers council I think are just tremendous because anytime anything hits the news you you are distributing that and we’re doing that with you in grassroots but what I’d like to do is talk with you just a little bit about where we go from now yeah and we can complain about the Jones Act certainly and we need to actually there’s much much more work that needs to be done to bring this into the public eye but what solutions are out there on the table right now yeah just before we get into that I’d like to mention the fact we discussed the bulk shipping side yes and also that affects the carriage of Drive bulk cargo such as grain and also liquid bulk cargo such that such as petroleum products and those are all affected by Jones Act pricing there’s in addition to that there’s the container shipping market that’s represented by Matson and horizon lines and for example Matson has announced earlier this year that they want to build two new rights and ships container ships of 3,000 tea you capacity and they’re talking about paying 200 million dollars a piece yes for each ship those that same ship well that ship will be designed by either a Japanese or a South Korean shipbuilding yard and built under license in the United States that would be the intention that same ship could be ordered directly from the people who originally designed the ship for forty million dollars well that’s an edible it makes a difference in price and that cascades all the way down to the okay to the consumer well your case is is a strong case but but what we need is more specific Econometrica modeling but I want to get two solutions well what are some of the solutions there that out there for revision the Jones Act yeah what what we’ve proposed is Allah is an exemption to the us build requirement okay for from the Jones Act and that’s one of four requirements in the jar Act it doesn’t dismantle it completely absolutely yeah it leaves almost everything in place except for the build requirement and the what we’re saying is that this would this exemption would only apply to the non-contiguous trades that is Alaska Guam Hawaii and Puerto Rico so we’re not talking about changing anything in the coastal trade this more moderate reform I could see right at the at the front end could be a little more politically feasible in Hawaii and in fact you have some experience with that you were part of representative gene Ward’s efforts in a recent legislative session where to get a bipartisan support how did that turn out it went fairly well we for a resolution for resolution essentially we helped we worked with genes office and we and gene got the support of three Democrats and one additional Republican and it was introduced it no hearing was held though apparently in the Jones Act interests crushed our ability to or ability to have a hearing and those would be those interests would be the shipping companies such as Matson and horizon they would be the unions that may support this they might be the leading political party as well is that what you’re talking about sure the the the primary source of the support comes of course from the shipping companies and it seems kind of counterintuitive that a company like Matson or horizon wouldn’t support a an exemption which would allow them to buy a much less expensive vessel but you did get three Democrats to sign on this board and that’s quite historic because this is the lockstep one party it the issue interestingly though you didn’t get all the Republicans I mean there’s more far more Democrats than those there are Republicans so you know numbers are probably in their favor I mean obviously in their favor but and the reason I’m pointing this out is it seems as though while you’re modest reform has some political capacity it’s not a political issue what is the reason that legislators who supported a call for a reform stood with that well what motivated them it wasn’t my party telling them to do it oh no yeah I think they genuine genuinely understood the issues and and wish to see a change and and and that’s the reason we’re working together in grassroot institute with you because we’re looking for a nonpartisan solution that is based upon doing good for the economy of Hawaii and I know you’re committed to that as well now there are some other options out there such as a suit in federal court for example to go for a rescinding of the or an exemption of the Jones Act for non contiguous states and and so forth yes and that would be at the opposite end and there also are there some congressional bill measures take at the United States so well the others you know for example so I guess three or four years ago Senator McCain put in a bill to repeal on a nationwide basis the Jones Act it wasn’t a very serious bill and I think he did it in a fit of pique yes but it’s a repeal of the Jones Act would set in the the coastal shipping market into disarray okay I mean if you want to do something on a nationwide basis then you should probably approach it not on a repeal basis but on a replace basis one of the things you know that we’ve done in grassroot institute is not lock ourselves into any one proposal per se in fact that I think having a specific proposal might be a little bit premature what we’re trying to do is empower those who are working to tell the public about the Jones Act tell the public what’s wrong with it and and to get a shifting tide empower us to work together and so I’m very grateful for your partnership in doing that because you represent a very very reasonable way of looking at bringing change about in Hawaii sure any any last word with that minute oh it’s probably worth mentioning that the resident commissioner from Puerto Rico that is the non-voting delegate from Puerto Rico to Congress Pedro Pierluisi intends to introduce Jones Act reform legislation for the Puerto Rico trade sometime later this and I think we’ll have a program when we talk about international and other aspects of looking at the Jones Act as well as Puerto Rico and its case one of the things that we want to do at grassroot institute is encouraged change in Hawaii for the better one of the most important areas is education giving parents giving students the best options and education is important I want to invite you to consider coming on July 30th to Milton Friedman’s birthday he’ll be watching from heaven of course and we’re gonna be celebrating it here our guest speaker is Joe Trippi a well-known democratic political consultant who is going to be speaking on the topic school reform is not a partisan issue July 31st for the 101st birthday of Milton Friedman and we want to promote better schools before I go you can get information at grassroot institute that singular grassroot institute org my guest today has been michael hansen of the hawaii shippers council thank you very much Michael Thank You Kaylee for the opportunity this has been a Hanukkah coal on the think Tech Hawaii broadcast network my thanks to J Fidel for being the master grand editor producer and everything the show needs and bringing to Hawaii’s people information on a better future for all of us much aloha until next time

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